Comments on Anti-Republican Culture: Friendly Fire

41% "seems high?" It's almost half! What bufflehe...

2009-12-26T22:01:44.210-07:00

41% "seems high?" It's almost half! What bufflehead looks at numbers like that and doesn't say "gee, maybe there's something fishy about that?" The rates of friendly fire from, say, the Civil War, or hell, anything up to about Korea, are not good similarity scores for Iraq and Afghanistan.

Liberals are essentially innumerate. Million/billion/trillion are all just "big number" to them. They won't do back-of-an-envelope calculations when something bizarre like this shows up. Innumerate. It explains a lot.

The "American War Library" is a scam. It's a one-m...

2009-12-26T02:31:02.209-07:00

The "American War Library" is a scam. It's a one-man operation run by "Phil Coleman" for the purpose of collecting personal information from veterans for resale to phishers, ID thieves, and such. The content is whatever filler he can get without paying.

Anonymous at 11:07am Christmas Day, I disagree... ...

2009-12-25T22:58:07.861-07:00

Anonymous at 11:07am Christmas Day, I disagree... firing discipline is pretty much Job 1 in combat training these days, I understand. I'd be more inclined to believe a very low friendly fire rate than anything CLOSE to the despicable Krakauer's "cite," because there's this internet thing that tends to get stories out even when The Man doesn't want them out.

I really really do despise Krakauer; I read Into Thin Air because a good friend was working for one of the companies that had a team on Everest during those events, and I wanted a bigger picture than what my distraught friend was able to give me. But when I read Into the Wild, all I could think of was, "Why on God's green earth are you talking this idiot up? He's not a holy hermit - he's a flipping dope, for heading into the Alaskan 'outback' with some rice and no plan! What are you, leading the freaking unexamined life to such an extent yourself that you can't recognize a narcissist when you see one?" But it was obvious that he couldn't recognize a narcissist because he WAS one, so there was no sense in expressing the thought aloud. (Though oddly it did come up in a dinner with friends recently.)

The Brookings Institution data cited above (based ...

2009-12-25T11:07:10.044-07:00

The Brookings Institution data cited above (based on data provided by the DoD) is interesting, but it offers absolutely no data about friendly fire.

The 2006 CBS News article cited above, which reports a rate of death from friendly fire in Iraq of approximately 1%, was based entirely on data provided by the Army. This data has been widely criticized as unreliable. Deaths reported by the Army as enemy fire have later been revealed to be friendly fire on numerous occasions.

The friendly fire numbers cited by Krakauer were the result of independent research performed by the American War Library, a non-partisan organization with no axe to grind. Although the 41% casualty rate from friendly fire in Iraq reported by the AWL seems shockingly high, and may well proved to be incorrect, it seems much more believable than the Army's data. It shold be noted that the AWL's friendly fire numbers for other wars do not seem excessive (21% in WWII, 39% in Viet Nam, etc.). So maybe there is some bad data skewing their Iraq numbers.

The Army's claim of less than a 1% death rate from friendly fire in OIF defies belief even more than the AWL's numbers. Historians consider the casualty rate from friendly fire in all wars to date to be 10-15%, at a very conservative minimum.

Here is where Karkaur apparently got his statistic...

2009-12-23T22:26:36.805-07:00

Here is where Karkaur apparently got his statistics:

http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/ff/ff.htm

Seems like a legit site, without bias

Krakauer is a f***ing Krackpot. Whether he is lyi...

2009-12-23T21:39:33.207-07:00

Krakauer is a f***ing Krackpot. Whether he is lying outright or taking advantage of bullshit he has culled from anti Republican Brooking's Institute fairyland statistics is not important.

Ask our American Iraqi and Afghanistan veterans.

JK departed Seattle and now lives in the conservat...

2009-12-23T17:27:12.656-07:00

JK departed Seattle and now lives in the conservative haven of Boulder, CO. He is now so wealthy he qualifies as a limosine liberal. It's easy to support 50% tax rates. When you have so much moolah the Gov't can take half of it and you still have more than you can spend.

Based on my limited knowledge of the matter, if so...

2009-12-23T14:29:13.345-07:00

Based on my limited knowledge of the matter, if someone only really knew the military based on their handling of Pat Tillman's case, they would be understandably cynical. One of the hard truths of war is that public support is needed for the effort to be successful over the long haul, and the temptations to create public myths to help garner that support are great. The book/movie Flags of Our Fathers documents the same sort of occurrence in WWII, and the president then was granddaddy of all current-day Democrats, Franklin Roosevelt. Mr Krakauer's problem is threefold: he's just realizing that life can be hard in the real world, in his shock at discovering that life can be hard in the real world he's too eager to use questionable statistics to emphasize his point, and finally, he needs an editor that's willing to fact-check his books.

I'm not sure where "anonymous" get the idea that t...

2009-12-23T14:09:38.990-07:00

I'm not sure where "anonymous" get the idea that the US forces have used "devastating firepower" over maneuver, but clearly "anonymous" has never been on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan. And has never read any of the FMs that cover the use of firepower or maneuver in an infantry unit. Or ever seen an infantry unit of any size operate in either theater.
But he's certainly read a post or two at Huffington/Kos/MoveOn.

Yes, Krakauer played fast and loose with the facts...

2009-12-23T13:34:48.353-07:00

Yes, Krakauer played fast and loose with the facts and presented speculation as fact in Into Thin Air, and that appears to be be a pattern. Note that he lives in Seattle, and it was none other than Sean Penn that made Into the Wild into a movie. They even appeared together in an episode of IFC's "Iconoclasts" series. Pretty much tells you his political prejudices right there.

Isn't this the same fellow who abandoned his fello...

2009-12-23T12:04:48.431-07:00

Isn't this the same fellow who abandoned his fellow climbers on Everest knowing some were going to die?

He was fit enough to make it back to his tent (first I think) yet not so much to rescue others. Though others in his trek did attempt and even died trying to save others.

And yet he is a stand-up guy and capitalizes on his sorry behaviour by publishing a book. And now, somehow, he is an authority on men and glory.

I believe I'll pass on this guy's work, his presentation of Republicans or humans is through a prism that lacks soul.

All of Krakauer's books are about Krakauer first. ...

2009-12-23T11:58:04.766-07:00

All of Krakauer's books are about Krakauer first. He just is not interesting enough for me to read.

I suppose if you were interested enough, you could...

2009-12-23T11:54:28.894-07:00

I suppose if you were interested enough, you could shoot him an email ans ask from where he got his figures. His answer or lack of answer could be quite revealing

I've enjoyed the reactions to this post, but want ...

2009-12-23T11:29:25.597-07:00

I've enjoyed the reactions to this post, but want all of you to remember this is a site dedicated to the documentation of our anti-Republican culture.

Has anyone noticed that Mr. Krakauer's take on things is not publicly challenged until the odd blogger points out his errant statistics? His book was published back in September, and his point of view was not rigorously questioned at the time.

Americans automatically give a "green light" to behaviors that cast Republicans in a bad light.

We can't help ourselves. It's our culture.

In his postscript, Krakauer uses the word "casuali...

2009-12-23T10:50:41.459-07:00

In his postscript, Krakauer uses the word "casualites" as opposed ot "fatalities" -- casualties, of course, includes wounded as well as killed.

Robert compares those percentages to KIA by friendly fire. It would be interesting to see if there are precise percentages for casualties. My guess is they would be comparable.

In any event, it shows that Krakauer is a sloppy writer.

Could have seen it coming... http://online.wsj.co...

2009-12-23T10:33:53.886-07:00

Could have seen it coming...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574406732146520274.html#articleTabs%3Darticle

Jon Krakauer's Inside Story of Pat Tillman

WSJ: You end the book with a gloomy visit to Afghanistan in early 2007. What did Mr. Tillman's sacrifice mean?

Mr. Krakauer: It didn't mean anything. It speaks to the mythology of war and how we glorify it for our national interests. There is nothing glamorous or romantic about war. It's mostly about random pointless death and misery. And that's what his death tells us. It reminds me that the good aren't rewarded, there's no such thing as karma. Maybe it says something about the dangers of any sort of idealism that isn't tempered by pragmatism or experience.

Tim, that "errant" missile was a Scud launched by ...

2009-12-23T10:27:46.000-07:00

Tim, that "errant" missile was a Scud launched by the Iraqis. Hardly a friendly-fire incident.

Perhaps 41 percent is too high, but the US Armed F...

2009-12-23T10:25:50.316-07:00

Perhaps 41 percent is too high, but the US Armed Forces, by emphasizing firepower over maneuver, have a serious problem with friendly fire.

While I doubt that Krakauer's statistics are even ...

2009-12-23T10:18:00.126-07:00

While I doubt that Krakauer's statistics are even remotely accurate, a high level of "fratricide", as a percentage of all casualties, is a logical consequence of devastating firepower deployed against an outmatched and therefore ineffective opponent. Keep up the good work.

Folks, he was already playing fast and loose with ...

2009-12-23T10:10:36.537-07:00

Folks, he was already playing fast and loose with the facts back when he wrote "Under the Banner of Heaven." Have you only just noticed?

I suspect that Krakauer mistakenly uses the 1st Gu...

2009-12-23T10:04:52.526-07:00

I suspect that Krakauer mistakenly uses the 1st Gulf War numbers, in which the largest single loss of American life (as I recall) came from an errant missile hitting a chow hall. There were very few battle causalities.

Anyone who followed the disastrous events on Mount...

2009-12-23T09:58:13.033-07:00

Anyone who followed the disastrous events on Mount Everest in 1996 would know that this author is not to be trusted with facts. While "Into Thin Air" makes for a good read, Jon's version of events is higly suspect. He is quick to blame others, while absolving himself. He makes unsubstantiated claims about Scott Fischer's team and his desicions on the mountain that day. A team he was not a part of and most certainly he was not privy to team conversations and decisions. Similar arguments can be made about his book "Into the Wild" and his glorified portayal of Christopher Chandless who was nothing sort of a complete idiot for wandering into the Alaskan wilderness woefully unprepared. I long ago nicknamed this author Jon Krackpot!

I heard Krakauer interviewed about the events of t...

2009-12-23T09:51:29.605-07:00

I heard Krakauer interviewed about the events of the book. It was right from the playbook of Moveon.org. He could not contain his contempt for Bush and Republicans, all purpose bogeymen. Listening to the interview it was clear he was exaggerating things. Everything fit too nicely into a predigested narrative. He also had to make Tilman part of those who think like him. He told us what Tilman thought, how he felt, etc. It was as if he knew Tilman better than anyone. It is funny how he fervently presses the issue of how Bush used Tilman, when Krakauer is using Tilman in a mercenary way and to establish his lefty bona fides. In the end it's all about Krakauer.

Haven't read this book, but have read three other ...

2009-12-23T09:50:47.207-07:00

Haven't read this book, but have read three other Krakauer productions. As a literary exercise compare and contrast "The Climb" with "Into Thin Air" (both about the same people and events) and you won't be surprised by the "cynical tone" of anything Krakauer produces. He IS a dyed in the wool whining cynic, so focused on the vanity of people "proving" theselves that he can't see admirable traits in anyone. Tells you ALOT about Krakauer. I feel like I know him and wouldn't want my boys to be like him. He's that kind of a guy.

His accounts in "Out of thin Air" were disputed by...

2009-12-23T09:37:06.504-07:00

His accounts in "Out of thin Air" were disputed by many of the involved parties as well.

The moral of this story is to not trust "journalists" to tell the truth without strong bias or agenda in their work...and it's virtually always liberal progressive bias.

Thanks to those that read and reviewed this book. I now know to pass on it and not put another $ in Krakauer's pocket.